27 February, 2007

War in the Cheddarsphere: The South-Central Theater

The online community wars here in Madison have really heated up in the past month or so. The latest series of skirmishes began last month when Madison's alt-weekly, Isthmus, mentioned that Capital Newspapers, who publish Madison's dailies, was going to put out a new free weekly called Post. Post also happens to be a section of the group's online presence (madison.com) which features a coterie of blogs exclusive to the site and links to other local bloggers. The print version of Post debuted last week to mixed reviews. Concomitant to this, the online version of Post received a facelift.

A couple weeks ago a group called Madison Interactive had its first meeting. Adam Powell, a Post blogger, led a panel discussion which included, amongst others, Todd Lekan, another denizen of madison.com. The event drew criticism from Kristian Knudsen of Isthmus' online presence, The Daily Page. Here's his comment:

However the event might “work out” to be, the money came from some budget line at Capital Newspapers, and my guess it’s marketing. It’s no coincidence that you are kicking off this group in conjunction — almost to the day — of your brand new publication, and not long after the launch of your revamped site.

I too think that this kind of group and discussion is a great idea. Unfortunately, given that you made no serious effort to include participation from your online competitors in the Madison market, it’s pretty clear that Capital Newspapers sees this as an opportunity to promote their new product and recruit more people to blog for them (and build ad impressions). That makes you a less than credible organizer.

This event isn’t about commerce in online communities, it’s about building commerce for a single online community, one owned by one of the largest newspaper chains in the nation.


And today Jason Joyce made a remark at The Daily Page which indicates that something is happening on this front over at Isthmus. The piece was about Madison blogger Ann Althouse and her latest piece in the New York Times. Joyce concludes:

In her Times piece, Althouse addresses the conversations that occur among those leaving comments on her site, suggesting bloggers "let life on the blog unfold like off-blog life."

That thought is particularly interesting due to some work we're completing this week right here at TDP, but more on that later.


The Daily Page and Post along with Dane101 are the major local blog aggregators for the Madison area. Dane101 has seemed to be able to stay above the fray thus far. (Although The Daily Page did see fit to take a snipe at it recently.) Unlike the other two, it is not tied to a print publication. Listening to Dane101 editor Jesse Russell speak at the Madison Interactive event about advertising at the site, it seems that he has the best of intentions (i.e. – not constantly looking at the bottom line) in creating an online community, if not a genuinely quixotic drive. However, TDP and Post are very much for-profit ventures. All 3 sites link to one another yet there's so much bad blood.

Dane101 is quite explicit in stating its purpose but Post and TDP's Miscellany section aren't. How do they fit into the larger goals of the print publications of which they are a part? What purpose do they serve other than getting folks to see and click on ads? More generally, who should care about blogs and why should anyone read them? Dane101 is part blog aggregator and part indie journalism and it gives its answer to these questions. Post and TDP haven't answered them yet, at least not fully.

I think we've gotten to the point where just throwing up a list of blog posts with some kind of local content is not enough. If you take blogs (or at least certain blogs or blog posts) seriously enough to use them as content for your website, then they should be treated more seriously than they are now. Instead of just lumping them all together divorced from any context, segregate posts by content and allow comments. Perhaps certain bloggers could be followed over time or, if a suitable blogger is found, then all posts relating to a topic of interest could be brought together. Are any rival blogs slugging it out online? Maybe exchanges between blogs could be highlighted. Right now I'll take just about anything over winnowing through a dozen posts with "analysis" of Badger games in order to find something I find interesting.

Only time will tell what these sites will be like as they mature. Hopefully they will all take varied approaches and differentiate themselves from one another in some fashion. I think this would benefit those of us who do try to keep abreast of the blogosphere here in the Madison area but might also draw in folks who have never bothered to see for themselves what all the hubbub is about.

I'll be keeping an eye out for the work that the folks at TDP are doing this week.

15 comments:

  1. They opened comments on The Daily Page today. That's new. Not sure if that is what Mr. Joyce is talking about. They are sticking to the rules Dane101 originally had set up - no anonymous comments - people need to own their words. Of course, they won't admit it, but it also has to do with at least one TDP writer having thin skin and not being able to take anonymous criticism (so much for staying above the fray).

    Dane101 has since abandoned that stance because we've found that people, sadly, comment more if they can do it with a silly name and we also have a handful of individuals, political figures for example, who need to protect their identities for whatever reason. Anonymous commenting hasn't really turned out to be as much of a problem that we thought it would be. In the year that we've had comments open we have only deleted three.

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  2. I saw that shortly after I posted this. I don't know any of TDP writer so I'll have to take your word regarding the inability to post anonymous comments.

    If being able to post comments was the thing alluded to in the bit on Althouse, then I'm disappointed. But I'm sure TDP will continue to evolve.

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  3. Hi, below is a comment I left at Letters in Bottles about your questions and theirs.

    One thing they didn't address that you brought up is the MadInteractive thing.

    On that: TDP and Dane101 were the first groups I contacted for starting that group. The end result was a collaborative effort involving people from several different local groups who chose to participate. I have nothing nice to say about the accusations that were made, but I would point out that it is pretty insulting to the other members of the group.

    Here are some more answers to your questions about Post:

    1) Is this war?

    Not as far I'm concerned. I've run into this problem at work where someone starts saying bad things about you. Even if you respond in a friendly, positive way, people assume you are in some kind of a fight. That is how I feel about this whole issue you are referring to. If this is war, war is very lame, immature, distracting, non-productive, and not something I'm ever trying to be a part of.

    For the record, I'm a huge fan of the TDP and Dane101, I hope they keep getting better, and I hope we all inspire more people to jump in and start participating with us or alongside of us.

    2) Are we a souped-up message board comunity?

    We're a blog-driven online magazine focused on local entertainment and culture. We're trying to promote and be a part of the local online community -- not so much be a local online community.

    3) Are we ignoring local blogs in order to promote our own content?

    Not specifically. Some local bloggers choose to blog on our site. Others don't. The home page of Post is meant to reflect both groups. We will make offers to local bloggers not on Post to appear in the print version.

    4) Why do these people need a Post account?

    Not to speak for "these people", but they may get more promotion, tech support, audience, comments, and revenue than they might be able to get on their own. Also, I think we do have a nice little growing community of support amongst our bloggers.

    5) Why do we mash all these different topics together?

    The front page of Post will give you a list of everything coming in from our bloggers. The common theme is really just that it is all local. Most posts are tagged, and you can use the navigation links at the top of the page to winnow through to specific topics.

    6) How does Post fit into the larger goals of the print publication of which they are a part?

    The print publication is a digest of what is online. It is meant to entertain people and promote the local online community.

    7) What purpose do they serve other than getting folks to see and click on ads?

    Entertain people and promote the local online community.

    Who should care about blogs and why should anyone read them?

    God, I can't wait until the term "blog" dies. Replace it with any term that describes a set of words and images expressing an idea and I think the answer is self-evident.

    9)What is the overall theme of Post?

    All Post bloggers are local people generally blogging about local topics or topics from a local perspective.

    I hope that helps. I'll be happy to keep answering your questions if it does not. Thanks for your interest.

    --Todd

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  4. Anonymous11:26 AM

    I guarantee Post is not a non-profit venture. Capital Newspapers is about making money...period. The Post staff may very well want to help the local blogging community, but their main goal is to make money.

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  5. I didn't mean to give the impression that Post is a non-profit venture. I don't understand at all how that factors in, but thank you for bringing it up.

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  6. Anonymous1:58 PM

    I'm confused on what difference the profit/non-profit angle makes on this subject. I'm always eager to jump on the corporate$=evil bandwagon, but we haven't seen any evidence that's true here yet. If you're looking at the print version of Post, you'll ignore the ads just as easily as if you were looking at the online version, or any other website. Are ads going to stifle a voice from an under-represented segment of society? Even if all the bloggers in the Madison area migrated to one paper or the other, would that water down the chance that views would heard? Are any of the contributors going to be censored or edited according to the newspapers' ad revenue? Is the paper going to cherry pick who gets to blog on Post? (As far as I know, only the print version will consist of chosen representative material.) I doubt it. It looks to me like the Isthmus feels threatened in some way, and I don't understand that either. The Isthmus makes a profit too, and I'm sure their market share isn't dwindling or swelling in direct proportion to Capital Newspapers' success (or lack thereof). This snit really does seem pretty juvenile. Addressing the Knudson comment: how do we know that Lekan didn't ask Daily Page folks to participate in the panel, and if he did that they just turned up their noses at him?

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  7. Actually, if you look back the madinteractive blog commments, you'll see that ultimately Kristian acknowledges that they were invited and turns it down anyways.

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  8. I certainly consider both incarnations of Post to be works in progress. I also agree with anonymous in that I've not seen any reason to jump on a corporate$=evil bandwagon here. Profit is certain a motive for Post and TDP but this doesn't mean that good/beneficial content is beyond them because of this.

    Todd - thanks for your comments. They cleared much up for me.

    I suppose one question that comes to mind in light of last night's Frontline episode which I wrote about today is either TDP or Post eager to promote a form of citizen journalism?

    Is anyone willing to further bring together traditional and new media? By this I address Todd's question #5. If Post or whatever webpage is only going to group blog posts (by whomever - be they affiliated with the site or not) all mashed together, so be it. I personally think it would be nice to link to relevant blog posts which comment on stories at other parts of the webpage or those which address stories in the print versions of Isthmus, WSJ, or TCT.

    I'll gladly take responsibility for the hyperbole of "war". But I must admit that I sense a bit of hostility on the part of Isthmus/TDP. But I cheerfully admit that I could be reading the situation completely wrong. I've never met Jesse, Todd, nor Kristian and my ignorance of them and their organizations far outweighs my knowledge. I appreciate all 3 sites.

    Cheers

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  9. Hi Palmer, great commentary. This comment system is kind of a pain. I've posted my response over on my blog:

    http://www.madison.com/post/blogs/advertorialist/121038

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  10. "This snit really does seem pretty juvenile. Addressing the Knudson comment: how do we know that Lekan didn't ask Daily Page folks to participate in the panel, and if he did that they just turned up their noses at him?"

    As a rep of Dane101 who helped plan Madison Interactive I can vouch that not only was Jason Joyce invited to take part in the preliminary planning session, but I also suggested that Kristian Knutsen be involved because I at one time had a great deal of respect for his grasp of the Internet culture and burgeoning trends.

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  11. Did Joyce decline for any particular reason?

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  12. He said he was too busy. He did attend our first event and mentioned he would be willing to participate on a panel in the future if his schedule permitted. I hope we can hold him to that.

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  13. When is the next event? I'd like to actually attend as opposed to watching your mugs on YouTube.

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  14. Some of us will be at the Brink on Tuesday 3/6 at 6pm figuring out that very thing. Feel free to join us.

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  15. I may take you up on that. However, I need to secure permission from the girlfriend first.

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